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Thurr

Backseat

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Is it my own complacency or is it societies push for easy gratification that turned me into a dirty backseat gamer?

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What does "backseat gamer" mean in this context? Like you just watch people play and criticize them without ever actually playing the game yourself?

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10 hours ago, Bild said:

What does "backseat gamer" mean in this context? Like you just watch people play and criticize them without ever actually playing the game yourself?

Basically. Although I don't even engage with the people that play or reply on videos I watch. 

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19 hours ago, Thurr said:

Is it my own complacency or is it societies push for easy gratification that turned me into a dirty backseat gamer?

A combination of the two, I would assume.

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It seems like watching video game streams is an updated form way to pass time instead of watching television reruns. Sure it's not the most productive thing to do, I've never gotten into it myself, but it's not the worst way to waste time. People watch soaps, sports, etc., why not games too?

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Watching is fine, it's the unwillingness to engage and interact where the problems develop.

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I'm kinda the same way @Thurr

Although for a bit different reasons.

Everything in society is all about pitting us against each other as if we were enemies. Even if you read alone in a room, most of the material is just about "how can we divide things into us vs. them".  Video games, job hunting, anything you name in society is all about lol levels of division. This psychology into seemingly harmless hobbies spills over into things that matter like governance and international politics (and vice versa of course). It really bugs me.

 

Modern society is full of shit. Everyone wants their bananas at the expense of others and their own psychology which could be much improved.

 

2 hours ago, ponasozis said:

Nothing you do matters

Just do whatever you want then 

Nihilism is full of shit. Misanthropy is full of shit too.

Edited by Talinn

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On 11/13/2018 at 8:20 PM, Talinn said:

I'm kinda the same way @Thurr

Although for a bit different reasons.

Everything in society is all about pitting us against each other as if we were enemies. Even if you read alone in a room, most of the material is just about "how can we divide things into us vs. them".  Video games, job hunting, anything you name in society is all about lol levels of division. This psychology into seemingly harmless hobbies spills over into things that matter like governance and international politics (and vice versa of course). It really bugs me.

 

Modern society is full of shit. Everyone wants their bananas at the expense of others and their own psychology which could be much improved.

 

Nihilism is full of shit. Misanthropy is full of shit too.

Dopamine, on dopamine, on dopamine, on dopamine

We have been overrun by our animal desire
Addicts of the immediate keep us obedient and unaware
Feeding this mutation, this Pavlovian despair

We've become
Disillusioned
So we run
Towards anything glimmering

Time to put the silicon obsession down
Take a look around, find a way in the silence
Lie supine away with your back to the ground
Dis- and re-connect to the resonance now
You were never an island

Unique voice among the many in this choir
Tuning into each other, lift all higher

Hey, how long? Oh

Dopamine, on dopamine, on dopamine, on dopamine

Willingly been re-wired by clever agents within
Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in
Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond

We've become disillusioned
So we dive like crows towards anything glittering

Time to put the silicon obsession down
Take a look around, find a way in the silence
Lie supine away with your back to the ground
Dis- and re-connect to the resonance now
You were never an island

Unique voice among the many in this choir
Tuning into each other, lift all higher

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14 hours ago, Thurr said:

Dopamine, on dopamine, on dopamine, on dopamine

We have been overrun by our animal desire
Addicts of the immediate keep us obedient and unaware
Feeding this mutation, this Pavlovian despair

We've become
Disillusioned
So we run
Towards anything glimmering

Time to put the silicon obsession down
Take a look around, find a way in the silence
Lie supine away with your back to the ground
Dis- and re-connect to the resonance now
You were never an island

Unique voice among the many in this choir
Tuning into each other, lift all higher

Hey, how long? Oh

Dopamine, on dopamine, on dopamine, on dopamine

Willingly been re-wired by clever agents within
Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in
Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond

We've become disillusioned
So we dive like crows towards anything glittering

Time to put the silicon obsession down
Take a look around, find a way in the silence
Lie supine away with your back to the ground
Dis- and re-connect to the resonance now
You were never an island 

Unique voice among the many in this choir
Tuning into each other, lift all higher

In addition to this:

"Right in Two" is a scathing critiquing of the dualism inherent to the human race. More or less advocates shit from the Upanishads.

"Reflection" mentions all three aspects of the trikaya doctrine in mainstream Buddhism.

My only main critique of Tool is that their songs sound so somber, which is part of their appeal. But I'd just as sooner contemplate these concepts listening to the Slim Shady persona from Eminem than anything from Tool. Great value in being playful despite the complexity of life. ( I know you listed a song from APC but same main guy.)

Edited by Talinn

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On 11/19/2018 at 7:28 AM, Talinn said:

My only main critique of Tool is that their songs sound so somber, which is part of their appeal. But I'd just as sooner contemplate these concepts listening to the Slim Shady persona from Eminem than anything from Tool. Great value in being playful despite the complexity of life. ( I know you listed a song from APC but same main guy.)

I quite enjoy the somber, melancholic tunes. Ecstatic tunes are a rarity for me to listen to.

 

To the previous point you made, which was far broader than the topic that the lyrics of the song touched, I feel privileged to live in the Netherlands which has a strong tradition of a Calvinistic approach to politics and a heavy emphasis of government through compromise. Even so, our culture is heavily influenced by that of America and polarization and duality is on the rise. 

I feel like everyone is chasing their sins and are unable to find real meaning.

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The meaning of life should be to raise awareness such that you don't just want the best for planet Earth and all of humanity, but all of reality itself. The distinction between life and non-life should start to break down. What is the best thing for a boulder on a mountain, for example.

You've heard it said that kicking a rock down a street is pretty harmless, who says this though? Our culture. This specific example might be bad but my point is that even if you can't answer such question, the fact that you are asking them helps your life a great deal. ( A common mistake most people today would make is confusing pre-rationalism with post-rationalists. Pre-rationalists think that rocks might have vengeful spirits. Post rationalists such as myself integrate science and no not disregard it despite it being part of the illusion).

Despite the ugliness, humanity is preparing itself to raise its awareness and rejuvenate the planet as well as itself. Even if we all go extinct, the universe will likely start somewhere / somewhen else. Or not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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5 hours ago, Talinn said:

The meaning of life should be to raise awareness such that you don't just want the best for planet Earth and all of humanity, but all of reality itself. The distinction between life and non-life should start to break down. What is the best thing for a boulder on a mountain, for example.

You've heard it said that kicking a rock down a street is pretty harmless, who says this though? Our culture. This specific example might be bad but my point is that even if you can't answer such question, the fact that you are asking them helps your life a great deal. ( A common mistake most people today would make is confusing pre-rationalism with post-rationalists. Pre-rationalists think that rocks might have vengeful spirits. Post rationalists such as myself integrate science and no not disregard it despite it being part of the illusion).

Despite the ugliness, humanity is preparing itself to raise its awareness and rejuvenate the planet as well as itself. Even if we all go extinct, the universe will likely start somewhere / somewhen else. Or not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Good and bad are human categories. They are relative not absolute and therefore are meaningless when applied to non-life.

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The concepts of good and evil have no identifiable locus since the self does not exist. Ergo they are not strictly human concepts. 

Go toe to toe with the void of reality and you'll see elements of the universe within yourself, and then see that the universe itself has human qualities completely independent of your wish or need to stay alive.

Removing the distinction between life and non life is analogous to removing a thorn in your foot while walking. It is tiresome and taxing to not do so on the belief that it will make you stronger if you tough it out. Just take the damn thing out. You are excluding the vast majority of the universe and the more you say " I do not care about X" the more it will bite you in the ass. My 2 cents is that it is too partisan and too naïve to simply care about the planet Earth. Not holistic enough.

That said, I am not quaking in my boots because of some rock.

Edited by Talinn

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8 hours ago, Talinn said:

The concepts of good and evil have no identifiable locus since the self does not exist. Ergo they are not strictly human concepts. 

Show me another object that can conceptualize good and evil, by itself, not learned from humans, and we can proceed along this line of reasoning.

8 hours ago, Talinn said:

Go toe to toe with the void of reality and you'll see elements of the universe within yourself, and then see that the universe itself has human qualities completely independent of your wish or need to stay alive.

Removing the distinction between life and non life is analogous to removing a thorn in your foot while walking. It is tiresome and taxing to not do so on the belief that it will make you stronger if you tough it out. Just take the damn thing out. You are excluding the vast majority of the universe and the more you say " I do not care about X" the more it will bite you in the ass. My 2 cents is that it is too partisan and too naïve to simply care about the planet Earth. Not holistic enough.

That said, I am not quaking in my boots because of some rock.

Distinctions exist because they are useful. You're making a bunch of unsupported statements that appear to be based on an abstract, unprovable, and untestable dogma. You also managed to create a false dichotomy (while arguing against false dichotomies) by opposing the "self" to the "universe". We exist within the universe, and therefore are inherently part of it. So of course the universe has human qualities, but only in so much as it has humans. Remove the humans, and you remove the human qualities. As for your analogy it's literally nonsense. Watch this.

Recognizing the distinction between life and non-life is analogous to removing a thorn in your foot while walking. It is tiresome and taxing to not do so on the belief that it will make you stronge rif you tought it out. Just take the damn thing out. You are failing to appreciate an important nuance about the vast majority of the universe and the more you say "you do not care about the distinction" the more it will bite you in the ass. My 2 cents is that it is too silly and to naive to simply think there is no difference between life and non-life.

Fun eh? On the subject of quaking in your boots because of some rock... not sure what you even mean there.

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2 hours ago, Feanor said:

Remove the humans, and you remove the human qualities.

A door knob does not have the capability to feel right or wrong, good or evil. It is however part of a larger system with enough intelligence to create these values elsewhere, in some other time / place. I'd say the universe's intelligence varies: at times it as a whole as dumb as a door knob and at times it has 5 billion IQ. That said, rocks do not have consciousness. Consciousness has rocks. 

Perhaps I miswrote. Nonduality does not erase differences, it merely transcends them to such a degree that the differences no longer waste precious energy and cause needless pain. Energy that we need to solve problems.

The most happy hippy in the world can love all people, but if a hurricane wipes out his town he might get depressed. This asymmetry causes problems because reality is reality, it is not human reality and non-human reality.

2 hours ago, Feanor said:

You're making a bunch of unsupported statements that appear to be based on an abstract, unprovable, and untestable dogma.

You're kinda right, well at least about the dogma. Arguing in favor of advaita is actually counterproductive to advaita since promoting any sort of ideology isn't in one's best interests.

Better to let me sit in the clouds and you can have your materialism and wait to see how the universe changes.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Talinn said:

A door knob does not have the capability to feel right or wrong, good or evil. It is however part of a larger system with enough intelligence to create these values elsewhere, in some other time / place. I'd say the universe's intelligence varies: at times it as a whole as dumb as a door knob and at times it has 5 billion IQ. That said, rocks do not have consciousness. Consciousness has rocks.

Do you have any proof? How do you measure the IQ of the universe? Is IQ as a concept even applicable to an object such as the (or "a") universe?

7 hours ago, Talinn said:

Perhaps I miswrote. Nonduality does not erase differences, it merely transcends them to such a degree that the differences no longer waste precious energy and cause needless pain. Energy that we need to solve problems.

Again, distinctions exist because they are useful for understanding and categorization. Whether they cause pain or waste resources depend on how one makes use of them. THey are tools.

7 hours ago, Talinn said:

The most happy hippy in the world can love all people, but if a hurricane wipes out his town he might get depressed. This asymmetry causes problems because reality is reality, it is not human reality and non-human reality.

Not a terribly relevant example. Nobody is arguing, at least in this thread, that there are two realities. The argument is that there is life and non-life, that consciousness is a product of life, and that good and evil are products of a psychological and cultural superstructure produced by a society of such consciousnesses. The distinction is relevant, and does in fact, in reality, exist. One can ignore it, or not ignore it, but it's there.

7 hours ago, Talinn said:

You're kinda right, well at least about the dogma. Arguing in favor of advaita is actually counterproductive to advaita since promoting any sort of ideology isn't in one's best interests.

Better to let me sit in the clouds and you can have your materialism and wait to see how the universe changes.

🐸

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As far as the intelligence in the universe goes, yeah obviously you can't give it an IQ test. I'm not really certain how to define its intelligence or anything about it other than the fact that I intuit it's there. It is certainly pretty damn vast and mysterious.

I don't really need proof since internally I am arguing in the most dispassionate way method possible. First of all the rationalist lens exists for a reason. Having the mentality that people in lab coats are poo poo faces for not seeing the spiritual side of the universe is like shouting at a stop light and saying it should not be there. Stop lights help people not get in accidents.  I'm the one that autistically avoids driving even to the grocery store 2 minutes away because of the scientific method which helped us identify climate change.

Second of all asking for proof via language is like asking to dig industrial amounts of gold with a toothpick.

Third of all everything I am saying is inherently 200% false even though I believe all my posts to best describe reality. I do not really have as much of a problem with paradox as maybe I should.

Let's say I'm posting to keep Diplo alive? =P

(and because i relate to thurr's original post a lot)

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Sorry for double post but this is a good example of my perspective on scientific rationalism:

 

6c550c251a6fa4a15acc5a3890081b6e

 

Scientific rationalism is an [optical] illusion.

We can use the duck interpretation or the rabbit interpretation for different purposes and in different contexts.

The realization that it can either be a duck or rabbit is a paradigm shift and is not based on logic. It happens spontaneously. Happens out of perception.

People may say that it is a picture of a rabbit or a duck, and the ambiguity supports their claim either way!

Fortunately we can flip back and forth easily. So in the case of rationalism, if we really want to crunch numbers and be all logical we can easily do this.

(I'm not using this to argue. I just wanted to post this.)

 

Edited by Talinn

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7 hours ago, Talinn said:

As far as the intelligence in the universe goes, yeah obviously you can't give it an IQ test. I'm not really certain how to define its intelligence or anything about it other than the fact that I intuit it's there. It is certainly pretty damn vast and mysterious.

How do you even know it has intelligence? Vast and mysterious hardly qualify as evidence of that.

7 hours ago, Talinn said:

I don't really need proof since internally I am arguing in the most dispassionate way method possible. First of all the rationalist lens exists for a reason. Having the mentality that people in lab coats are poo poo faces for not seeing the spiritual side of the universe is like shouting at a stop light and saying it should not be there. Stop lights help people not get in accidents.  I'm the one that autistically avoids driving even to the grocery store 2 minutes away because of the scientific method which helped us identify climate change.

You've made claims that are far from self evident. You need proof. Regardless of your respet for science. 

7 hours ago, Talinn said:

Second of all asking for proof via language is like asking to dig industrial amounts of gold with a toothpick.

Sorry, what method would you prefer for providing your proof?

7 hours ago, Talinn said:

Third of all everything I am saying is inherently 200% false even though I believe all my posts to best describe reality. I do not really have as much of a problem with paradox as maybe I should.

Let's say I'm posting to keep Diplo alive? =P

(and because i relate to thurr's original post a lot)

If you recognize that what you say is false, why say it, and not say what is true instead?

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5 hours ago, Talinn said:

Sorry for double post but this is a good example of my perspective on scientific rationalism:

 

6c550c251a6fa4a15acc5a3890081b6e

 

Scientific rationalism is an [optical] illusion.

We can use the duck interpretation or the rabbit interpretation for different purposes and in different contexts.

The realization that it can either be a duck or rabbit is a paradigm shift and is not based on logic. It happens spontaneously. Happens out of perception.

People may say that it is a picture of a rabbit or a duck, and the ambiguity supports their claim either way!

Fortunately we can flip back and forth easily. So in the case of rationalism, if we really want to crunch numbers and be all logical we can easily do this.

(I'm not using this to argue. I just wanted to post this.)

 

Curiously enough, in science, there is a direct parallel to this that shows up just how scientists handle a situation like this. For example, subatomic particles, like photons, are both particles and waves, depending on how one looks at them. The same sort of rabbit-duck duality that you have here. Yet this duality hasn't stumped science, but instead has advanced our understanding of the universe. If you look into advanced physics, I strongly suspect you will find that scientists aren't nearly as limited in their thinking about the nature of the universe as you seem to imply.

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  • Didn't say I know there's universal intelligence. I said I intuited it's there. I intuit it's there based on the fact that reality functions so beautifully, and without bugs or glitches. This is not proof, but I find it fascinating how many people take this for granted
  • I don't need proof because I'm barely making an coherent argument. Think of it more like a therapy session to vent my thoughts.  ^.^
  • The proof that you need to intuit the existence of universal intelligence is about the same type of proof that you need to see the rabbit vs. duck. How am I supposed to formulate a logical argument for this? Either you see it or you don't. And both are fine either way.
8 hours ago, Feanor said:

Curiously enough, in science, there is a direct parallel to this that shows up just how scientists handle a situation like this. For example, subatomic particles, like photons, are both particles and waves, depending on how one looks at them. The same sort of rabbit-duck duality that you have here. Yet this duality hasn't stumped science, but instead has advanced our understanding of the universe. If you look into advanced physics, I strongly suspect you will find that scientists aren't nearly as limited in their thinking about the nature of the universe as you seem to imply. 

They don't typically have problems with different perspectives when it concerns individual entities in the fields of science.

They tend to have more problems with different frameworks of seeing reality. So when I say, "gravity does not exist", they get flustered.

Despite the fact that, with this perspective I can:

  • take and ace a physics exam
  • harbor no bad feelings towards science or scientists whatsoever
  • be interested in science and even contribute to the fields of science

    It is synonymous with seeing the rabbit vs. duck. I can switch back and forth with no problems and do not hate rabbits or ducks. But you're right, there's a good deal of cool scientists doing good work.
     
    8 hours ago, Feanor said:

    If you recognize that what you say is false, why say it, and not say what is true instead? 

    On the meta level, there is no real distinction between rationalism and nonduality; they are the part of the same pool of water. So to call one an illusion and the other the "truth" makes absolutely no sense. Because reality works so flawlessly, if everyone was supposed to be nondualists it would have already happened.

    The amount of paradoxes in the universe is really staggering and really makes it hard to pinpoint what absolute truth is. You do what you thinks will make you happy. That's what everyone does, even Hitler.

    We can still improve the planet and humanity in lots of ways, but it's important to recognize that the planet is also perfect as is. The latter realization helps stem the tide of ideology, despite ideology also being perfect...

 

escharian_stairs_fb.jpg?resize=1200,630&

Edited by Talinn

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